Temp Admins. Guidelines? A system?

This thread is about the clan 'Admin' rank, specifically regarding the giving of this to non-ranks on a temporary basis in order to let them hold an avatar.

Tl;dr - There needs to be some kind of system on when (and why) temporary Admin ranks are awarded, who to, and for how long. Because I don't have access to our ranked forum, hopefully this will prompt discussion on there as to how this issue can be dealt with.

Some people may already be aware that the current way of giving temp Admin ranks is one of my clan pet hates.. I'm not trying to overstep my place with this post/thread, but I do think it's important to create a fair & equal system for all.
The purpose of this thread is mainly to prod higher ranks into talking about this issue, but I've added some suggestions/items of discussion of my own.

Currently, temp Admins are given when somebody asks an Organiser+ rank and the rank says yes. That's basically it.


My Suggestions:
One potential solution is that the clan ranking system is reformed to allow for a 'trial Admin' stage after General as a progression in the Lieutenant -> Captain -> General system. This would be based on the new points system (based on XP and event attendance/activity) and last for a set amount of time, at the end of which the person is assessed (on their demeanour and responsibility demonstrated during the trial period) and the Admin rank is either permanently awarded or the person is demoted back to General, with the opportunity to re-try at a later date.
This is obviously reliant on how we award Admin ranks, and could either be a 'new way' of awarding Admin or a way which works in tangent with the current selection process. Or just not implemented at all.


Another potential solution is that we instead form a set of guidelines which standardise temp Admins and stops a select few favourites from being the only ones to get this opportunity. It may not be as meritocratic as implementing it into the ranking system, but allows for a more equal experience.

• When and why do temp Admins get awarded? - 1) Temp Admin is given if no avatars are out and none have been summoned for an extended period of time - 2) Temp Admins holding an avatar should stay on the world which most people in the clan chat are currently on, which is usually world 36.
  
• Who gets temp Admin? This is probably the trickiest one to offer suggestions for - 1) When no avatars are active, and they do not want to take one out themselves, Organiser+ ranks could actively ask if anyone would like to take out the avatar - 2) If it does fall onto individuals being temp'd if and when they ask to be, they should not be allowed to be temp'd if they have recently been deranked/muted for a rule violation - 3) It would be nice if Organiser+ ranks made an effort to vary the people who get awarded temp Admin.
  
• How long does the temp Admin last? - 1) Should it last until a rank offers to summon, or summons, their own avatar? - 2) When the temp Admin dismisses their avatar, their Admin status should be revoked - 3) The temp Admin may be demoted back to their usual rank when the person who temp'd them needs to leave.
  

Discussion:
Do you agree with my suggestions? Is this necessary?
Are there any of your own suggestions you'd like to add?
Do you think temp Admins should be given at all? Personally, I see them as being given a bit of responsibility and a chance to prove yourself. As well as the practical element of benefitting everyone on that world (XP bonus).
I'd love to hear any feedback and to know whether this is being discussed in the ranked section also.

Edit: Reminder to please stay on topic!

I'll add to the discussion, as I'm really fed up with how things are dealt with in ClanChat.

Firstly, I encouraged the new ranking system, where someone can/should be promoted based on different dedications made towards chat and/or clan (XPs, events attending, HELPFULNESS!!!, etc.). This really encourage people to attend more events and to feel more as a part of the Clan.
However, as current ranking system stands is purely based on XPs gains, which means there are "12year olds" with high (silver/gold) ranks in clan chat (which only feeds their ego further).

There should be more restrictions on how one can be promoted AND demoted (as it is happening again people are getting promoted and there is no realy cause you can loose your rank to).

Do you agree with my suggestions? Is this necessary?
I agree temp-ava warden ranks are a nice addition to the Clan, as even at those, not so active times (or time-frames where there are no perm-ranks willing to take avatar out on daily basis) people can still benefit.
It is necessary just because it's getting exploited. As Olmara stated in ClanChat, one can not be promoted to avatar-warden rank, just after being demoted for rule breaking (do we really encourage this kind of behaveour?).

Are there any of your own suggestions you'd like to add?
I'd go with ClanScore-thread: Where people can post on relevant actions ingame, which can award them PTS. Enough PTS and you're looking at these, either temporal or permanent promotions where they are needed. (PTS should be collected from and not limited to (just suggestion): Clan XPs gains, Citadel capping, attending events (hosts should keep a list of people who attend their events), being nice and helpful/respect for others*, etc.)

Do you think temp Admins should be given at all? Personally, I see them as being given a bit of responsibility and a chance to prove yourself. As well as the practical element of benefitting everyone on that world (XP bonus).
Only if *new* Clan ranking system includes more areas of people behaveour, rather than being focused on XPs gains only (I know this has been discussed to be improved, but no real progress has been made since release).
I do realise TeamSpeak, Skype and such really bonds people together, but this doesn't change stance of SlayerNest Official Rules; this is taken from our RSOF thread: "While we are one of the top ranking Clans on RuneScape, our primary focus is not XP, but rather providing a friendly community for everyone to enjoy."
With all the cursing and "friendly poking" which is getting out of hand (or atleast out of Rules) (the 'respecting ranks' being broken on daily basis by individuals) isn't really the way to go.
I also noticed that alot of ranks don't understand that they're really an example for others (when high-rank curses, everyone feels they can curse too).

I'd only like to add here that temp-ava warden ranks should notice other high-ranks (organisers, deputy owners, ...) to being demoted back to their original rank, after they do the job. Failing to do so, should make you loose some PTS on scoring system.

I think reworking the way admin works would be a bit much just after the new ranking system. The recent Dev Q&A stream from last week had Kelpie say avatar warden can and should be changed, soon too. I'd wait just a little bit longer. If things are really that big of a problem until then, let's get the attention of the generals. It's not like we're running out of avatars to use (and you can't log with them) these days anyway.

I don't see much of a problem with the temp ava now, providing that there are no ranks available to summon one.

By this, I don't mean no ranks are online, just that those ranks are doing other things and can't hold the avatar. In that situation, I don't see why we can't temp rank someone up until another rank can pick up the avatar and then the temp rank is removed.

Also, am I right in thinking that the avatar doesn't get auto-dismissed if you lose ava warden status? If this is the case, I don't see why we can't just demote as soon as the avatar is summoned. We can recall summoned avatars now if really needed anyway, so yeah.

Tl;dr - I think temp ava warden is OK if nobody can summon an avatar at that time.

PrimalMoose wrote:

If this is the case, I don't see why we can't just demote as soon as the avatar is summoned. We can recall summoned avatars now if really needed anyway, so yeah.

I could be wrong, and I think it's worth testing, but I believe the avatar dismisses if you hop worlds/lobby without the proper rank.

I've always disliked this. It feels wrong especially when we aren't an xp oriented clan but not only that, I like to think that the avatar is awarded to you when you have been recognised by higher ranks and been lucky enough to be given the Admin rank. Kind of like a "Hey well done for supporting the clan, you can now have this avatar when you want it for your benefit whilst also benefiting your fellow clan members." But now a lot of people expect their 3% xp buff 24/7 just because they know they can get that extra xp and it can make chat unhealthy sometimes. I think it'll start getting out of hand soon if all it takes is asking then what's the point in even having the Admin rank?

I don't think this temp Admin thing is needed. Instead just stopping the whole thing altogether. The only thing that is broken is that temp Admin is being given willy nilly, it will only get to a point where certain members become favourites and that's where problems start arising.

If you want your 3% xp buff and no one is available for the avatar then tough. Maybe that's me being harsh but that's how I've always felt about it.

A vouching system seemed to be popular. The silver/gold stars that would give temp ava obviously have a short list of people that they'd give it to. If we share that list between ranks, have a set criteria to allow it, or at least record who we give it to and when, it could help cut down on favoritism.

Also, it should be clear that just asking to hold avatar when none are out shouldn't be enough to get it. It's a privilege, not a right.

Following on from the chat discussions earlier, going to summarise some thoughts I have now...

Temp Ranking Guidelines
I'm not averse to the idea of having guidelines for this, but I do think that they shouldn't (and don't need to) be overly complicated. I think it would be sufficient just to say that temp ava could only be given during times when there are no ranks available to summon an avatar, and that those people should be demoted as soon as someone who is able to hold ava can do so.

It's not fair to rank some people over others
I honestly don't really mind who holds avatar and who doesn't. I can see where some people are coming from with regards to the way that these temp avas are awarded, but honestly, if there's no ava out and someone asks it's much easier just to give them the ava rather than having a lengthy process behind choosing who to award it to. It doesn't have to be overcomplicated, which I fear it might become if we do go down the route of having a formal set of rules designed for this.

E: Newer members, perhaps not, but for the regular players we know aren't going to abuse it I think it's more beneficial for the other clan members to let that first person who asks hold an avatar rather than withholding it altogether or whatever.

Something
There was a third thing I was going to say, but I've forgotten it so I'll edit it in if/when I remember <3

Conc Blast wrote:

Also, it should be clear that just asking to hold avatar when none are out shouldn't be enough to get it. It's a privilege, not a right.

This is why I disagree with the whole temp Admin thing and why I feel it should be abolished completely. However, it does seem to be the more popular opinion amongst members so I must be seeing the issue through a different light. I'm ok with that though.

Currently, it sorta does work with a 'vouching' system, or favoritism if you want to call it that.  If someone I know and trusts wants the avatar, I will give it to them. Basically if I would lend them gp, i would temp rank them.  It has nothing to do with exp.  I have offered to give it to alvis before while he was training, etc. It is sort of the logic with airplanes open seats. If the airplane is about to fly anyways and there are tons of seats available, you may as well unload them for whatever you can get. The airplane is leaving anyways. You may not have the "right" to it, but they may as well give it to you for a dollar.

However, I do agree that their behavior and stuff does matter.

VegIsHawt wrote:

Currently, it sorta does work with a 'vouching' system, or favoritism if you want to call it that.  If someone I know and trusts wants the avatar, I will give it to them.  Basically if I would lend them gp, i would temp rank them.  It has nothing to do with exp.  I have offered to give it to alvis before while he was training, etc.

However, I do agree that their behavior and stuff does matter.

Using Alvis as an example. You might give Alvis the rank but others may not, it will cause issues at some point or another when a rank gives someone admin and a different rank won't. This is where some guidelines or prerequisites can negate that.

Just so you know, the generals have started discussing this.

thebirches wrote:

VegIsHawt wrote:

Currently, it sorta does work with a 'vouching' system, or favoritism if you want to call it that.  If someone I know and trusts wants the avatar, I will give it to them.  Basically if I would lend them gp, i would temp rank them.  It has nothing to do with exp.  I have offered to give it to alvis before while he was training, etc.

However, I do agree that their behavior and stuff does matter.

Using Alvis as an example. You might give Alvis the rank but others may not, it will cause issues at some point or another when a rank gives someone admin and a different rank won't. This is where some guidelines or prerequisites can negate that.

^^^^

You'd give it to people that I wouldn't (not out of spite just you're closer to some people than I am), and vice versa.

Then it becomes a "but this guy let me why not now?" issue. Then it turns into "then why this guy and not me?". It works now since it's still unofficial, but it's not good for the long term.

Of course, Birch, "no temp ava" is a solution. But, it's such a beneficial thing for the whole clan (not just the temps) that it seems like an unnecessary restriction. Honestly, I'd prefer if Jagex just let avatar warden be given out to any rank (captain/gen for example) rather than just admin+.

Conc Blast wrote:

Of course, Birch, "no temp ava" is a solution. But, it's such a beneficial thing for the whole clan (not just the temps) that it seems like an unnecessary restriction. Honestly, I'd prefer if Jagex just let avatar warden be given out to any rank (captain/gen for example) rather than just admin+.

You make a fair point. I agree with your last statement though, the way the avatar works should be completely redone.

Discussion point from a conversation in CC today:
How long should a temp rank last?

Olmara wrote:

Discussion point from a conversation in CC today:
How long should a temp rank last?

I'm going to use X in this example. We are going to not affiliate X with any known rank (so they could be sergeant or a general for all we know - to get rid of any bias).

Say it is 7:45PM and X asks for avatar rank to go train...let's say, a number of things or just one or two: invention (so, fishing/slaying/regular combat), herblore, summoning, thieving, cooking, firemaking -- whatever the task might be.
So X gets given the rank of admin around 7:45PM ish and is on for a few hours..say 11:30PM ..just training like anyone would normally do.
A rank (so an admin+ goes up and takes out avatar) -- I believe the temp rank should still be given the ability to hold avatar as the admin+ can easily hop worlds, if they need to or ask the temporary rank to hop ..if being on W36 is crucial.

To answer your question directly, I feel..they should have it removed when they log for the night of that same day they were given it. There is nothing wrong with them having it for a little while longer...if they have to suddenly leave for IRL purposes and come back and resume what they were doing.

If you question the time they request it..say noon (12PM) and log and come back and their rank is gone and there is no avatar out...X may just request to have it again and sure it is up to the organisers + who had it out, but most I'm sure would give it again. Better having it out than idle at the citadel, no matter what rank.

Honestly, it still really just sucks that ava and kick rank are so tied together. Are we sure we can't remove kick from admin, and move the lieutenant/captain FC ranks up one in the clan? The bronze key rank would still be empty for future changes (bananas->gen are flexible).

To latch onto brave's point, as much as I like the day long system, with timezones being a thing, who's to say when the day starts/begins? When california's going to bed, australia's having dinner while europe's waking up. Who's the one to do it? Do we add on another thing to manage by removing Admins at reset that shouldn't have it? If so, who does it? What happens if they forget? There's a definite security risk for the clan there, unless we decide to give all high xp clanmates admin (not a great idea in and of itself obviously), but it's not an easy thing to answer or say with any certainty.

I don't think a perm admin should be able to steal an ava from a temp either. If there's 3 avas out and a temp has one, the temp should give it up if an admin wants one. If an admin wants the world with their ava, the temp should hop. But, if the admin's just going to dismiss it after doing div yews, the temp shouldn't lose temp status. Even if the admin takes one of the 3 out there, I don't think the temp shouldn't lose temp either (unless say the one that gave it out went to bed or logged out for the time being).

And for the record, this thread shouldn't be used as any definitive argument-ender, it's just a discussion. There still isn't an official decision. When there is, use that.

It would just be easier if we could just be relaxed about it.

Give temp rank to someone if no avatars are out, they use it until whenever and then dismiss whenever. People are looking at the CC all the time - someone is bound to notice that person X has been given temp ava, and a quick look at the noticeboard would say that they don't have an avatar any more, at which point they could be deranked. Just make it something that everyone chips into checking, rather than making it a job for a specific person/people.

thebirches wrote:

If you want your 3% xp buff and no one is available for the avatar then tough. Maybe that's me being harsh but that's how I've always felt about it.

I absolutely disagree with this attitude. Frankly it's embarrassing that we run such a big clan but have the all 3 avas in the pool all the time. When I try to recruit I should be able to say stuff like join us because we have avas out 24/7 but instead I have to avoid the subject.

I'm okay with ranks not wanting to grab avas, but we shouldn't be hindering those that is willing to provide for the clan.

PrimalMoose wrote:

It would just be easier if we could just be relaxed about it.

Give temp rank to someone if no avatars are out, they use it until whenever and then dismiss whenever. People are looking at the CC all the time - someone is bound to notice that person X has been given temp ava, and a quick look at the noticeboard would say that they don't have an avatar any more, at which point they could be deranked. Just make it something that everyone chips into checking, rather than making it a job for a specific person/people.

That's the conclusion I was aiming for from my last post. The rigidity this discussion expects from a Gen+ decision isn't easy to put together, or enforce. It's still a good idea to protect the privileges of the perm admins, they did earn it after all. Perma-temps do (to a mild extent at least) undermine the avatar privilege they've worked hard to deserve, and also encourages non-ranks to "suck up" to silver+ for an avatar.

I'd love to just give temp out to anyone that asks, but it's not that easy. Harmless's opinion of a 400+ member clan in the top 10 with 3 idle avatars is spot on. You'd expect them all to be out constantly as a new member.

Harmless wrote:

thebirches wrote:

If you want your 3% xp buff and no one is available for the avatar then tough. Maybe that's me being harsh but that's how I've always felt about it.

I absolutely disagree with this attitude. Frankly it's embarrassing that we run such a big clan but have the all 3 avas in the pool all the time. When I try to recruit I should be able to say stuff like join us because we have avas out 24/7 but instead I have to avoid the subject.

I'm okay with ranks not wanting to grab avas, but we shouldn't be hindering those that is willing to provide for the clan.

We should sit at the minimum Citadel tier for the literal one and only avatar  (most of the time) which gets used. No one seems to agree on anything and people just keep passing the blame "so and so shouldn't have it" or "X doesn't get it out" (<- I do this), so why bother putting in the effort to maintain 3 avatars? We don't need 'em.

So often during the later night hours, probably just after reset 7:00PM (my time) ..won't be an avatar until perhaps Marko comes on and fishes.

Sure it takes time to rank up, not disagreeing with that one bit ..people who have the privilege ..basically neglect that/their ability and are not cooperative in letting others help out.

Come DXPW, X Y and Z will all want avatars and people will be snatching them up as soon as it is dismissed, why is now any different. It shouldn't be any different.

The only people who are so hard-faced about this are certain people who are admin+, if you aren't willing to take it out...step aside (I don't step down as in rank), but rank someone up (I won't name names, but in general speaking terms) and let someone who wants to, do so and in turn..it will help out the clan and not cause so much commotion over something (like taking it out while: skilling, bank standing or slaying even) that you don't even want to do in the first place deter everyone else's willingness to help.  

Conc Blast wrote:

I'd love to just give temp out to anyone that asks, but it's not that easy. Harmless's opinion of a 400+ member clan in the top 10 with 3 idle avatars is spot on. You'd expect them all to be out constantly as a new member.

You know..in my last clan..when I first joined we had 3 (but with 250~ people ish). I started collecting orts and wondered why no one really took the avatar out. I didn't really say much cause I wasn't fully aware of the clan system and all that, but whenever the avatar was out...I didn't even feel it to be worth it to use 300 orts for the 1 week boost..mainly because it was hardly taken out. I think I only did start giving orts for boost after I was 15k orts ..and after a while ..I was able to take it out myself (so those extra orts came in handy! ).

The rule for the avatar we had: the 'first one' had to be on the clan's home world...and seeing how hardly there isn't more than one out..that doesn't really apply. xD

Same way I feel now. There is hardly any point to the boost. 400+ members, 3 idle avatars for most of the evening hours.

I don't understand why this is such a big deal really. At the end of the day, the ranks don't really mean anything aside from that glow of happiness and pride that you're ranked in one of the top RS clans. The fact remains that other clans, some large, some small, will literally give anyone avatar rights just to make sure there is one out. Like for an example, the clan I guest in was literally handing out ranks to pretty much everyone who was in the CC at the time just to get an avatar out (admittedly the owner is quite laid back so he didn't really care who had ranks), and they do usually have an avatar out in their home world pretty much 24/7.

Is this something that the gens are currently discussing, so we can get a definite end to this debate?

PrimalMoose wrote:

At the end of the day, the ranks don't really mean anything aside from that glow of happiness and pride that you're ranked in one of the top RS clans.

Not for long with how fast the other clans are catching up. Going to lose 4 ranks or so in the next month or two.

This may be one of my last posts on the subject,
But I think essentially one issue is that the clan does not rank people up to admin (permanently) on the basis of whether they would take the avatar out a lot. At this current time, in this specific clan, it does not seem that that is how awarding ranks is decided.
The question, then - which goes beyond the scope of this thread, seeing as the subject is clearly temp admin and not the permanent rank - is whether the clan is, or should be, more xp-focused or relaxed and community focused, and thus what the purpose of the admin rank is. Temp works as a compromise with the current stance (I believe) because it means that people who are capable of holding the avatar for xp-boosting purposes can do so under the discretion of permanent ranks who have the responsibility to award it.

I am here to follow the precedent set by the higher ranks, and whichever approach taken is the approach I will follow, but again, this thread is on temp ranks. Changing how admin is awarded is an issue for higher ranks and if a discussion is to be had on people's opinions on that then the place for it is not this thread.

Olmara wrote:

This may be one of my last posts on the subject,

pls